I will be making suggestions and I would like all of your opinions before instituting any ideas for the guild moving forward from today.

This guild will not be a dictatorship, it will be a democracy. We will together find ways to improve the guild so that everyone enjoys being a part of this great guild.

As past leaders of this guild Elindros and Marquesh will maintain Officer Status on all of their toons.

What I would like to propose is a set of guidelines people can follow to obtain officer status.

I will attach a poll to this question so that you can all vote on this idea. You may also leave you comments here; both negative or positive. I want all of your ideas.

TO OBTAIN OFFICER STATUS:

1. You have to sign up for this website.

2. Anyone under the age of 16 years will not be an officer. This is for 2 reasons, inviting/dismissing fellow Guildies (If you need further explanation on this on just ask me) and schoolwork commitments.

3. Once you are an officer it will be up to your judgement for inviting new recruits into the guild.

4. Officers will not be allowed to dismiss people from the guild. Only the Guild Leader or Successor can do that after the full story is heard.

5. Framework For Becoming an Officer:

Level 16 - Signed Up For the Website
Level 15 - Signed Up For the Website and 1 Forum Post.
Level 14 - Signed Up For the Website and 2 Forum Posts.
Level 13 - Signed Up For the Website and 5 Forum Posts.
Level 12 - Signed Up For the Website and 10 Forum Posts.
Level 11 - Signed Up For the Website and 15 Forum Posts.
Level 10 - Signed Up For the Website and over 25 Forum Posts.

This is what I would like your votes and comments on.

Cheers Kal

I would like to see officers as active members. I think there should a time frame for officers. I think that a person should be in the guild for at least a month. I think that an officer should have organized a few events. I am not sure the amount. Being active on the website is very good. I would say that approval from another officer would be nice. This would keep people we have never really played with from being promoted. Here is what I would use. To become an officer they will make a post in the section on becoming on the forums listing the requirements. Other officers will post and vouch for this person. The candidate will also post who they ran their 3 scheduled quests with, and when they were ran.

1. Forum Activity
Level 16 - Signed Up For the Website
Level 15 - Signed Up For the Website and 1 Forum Post.
Level 14 - Signed Up For the Website and 2 Forum Posts.
Level 13 - Signed Up For the Website and 5 Forum Posts.
Level 12 - Signed Up For the Website and 10 Forum Posts.
Level 11 - Signed Up For the Website and 15 Forum Posts.
Level 10 - Signed Up For the Website and over 25 Forum Posts.

2. Be a member of the guild for a month. This could be primarily based upon the forum sign up date.

3. Organize and lead 3 events. Post any quest on the calendar and run it. This must be scheduled at least one week ahead. As long as one member of the guild runs with that person it will be considered a success.

4. Other officers will vouch for that person.

*I do think we should promote all who we fill have completed this in the past This should not apply to others who deserve it. I also think that we should also promote all their alts or atleast make a path to make that happen. Maybe if they run more schedualed events then their other alts will become officers.*

Hi Marquesh,

I hear everything your saying here and I'm glad you took the time to put your thoughts down. Since the time I was nominated I've been doing a lot of thinking about this guild and what went wrong.

I truely believe all the rules we had instituted were causing people to stop enjoying the game. I've had lengthy discussions with some of our greatest players who recently left the guild and have a new insight into this.

I to did believe at one time that officers should contribute more then the average player and should be rewarded for it. I also felt officers should only be in this guild and no other.

I have re-thought this idea and on both counts I feel I was wrong and I wish I could take back all of the stuff I said regarding these issues. In Elinros's defence he only did what the council wished. if we could have seen into the future maybe our arguments would have been different. Alas hindsite is 20/20 and Elindos took the hit for the team so to speak.

I feel in order to forge ahead we need to do a complete 180 turn. We need to have more fun and less rules. I've been visiting other guild websites and it seems the more sucessful guilds have far less rules and are the better for it. It seems in those guilds if someone wants to do something they list it. We don't have enough web traffic at this time to support planned questing. We need to drum up website interest.

I feel there are only so many factors the leaders of the guild can keep a handle on. It would be impossible to critique everyones individual value to the guild and therefore bestow upon them rewards such as officer status.

In the end those that want to help out will rise to the top and help out. Those that like a more subdued role that is fine to. I don't want to penalize anyone for gameplay or leadership capabilities. I believe everyone has their own personalities and abilities and I won't judge them for it.

The website idea shows at least an interest in the guild. Heck if you are level 14 sign up for the website and write 2 posts and your an officer. I did it this way to get people to come to the site. I mean that is not an over the top expectation for guild members to be expected to pop on the site from time to time. If you go to OTG they have a record of 124 members on the site at one time. I think we sit at 12.

I mean if someone sticks with the Fellowship and makes it to level 14 they probably are experienced enough and deserving enough to be an officer. I don't want people to jump though hoops, I just want them to have fun.

Cheers
Kal

I think you are 100% correct about being an officer. I agree it should be a reward we hand out to people who deserve it. I do think that if we allow people who want to be officers because of lvl and two post it might loose the importance. My reasing behind the being in for a month is it will weed out poeple from joing just to become an officer and boot every one. A month is a massive comitment for a disgruntled person looking to mess with the guild.

I think people orgainizing a quest would allow others to run with them and let others know who they are and if they are a good person. If they are a prick we really don't need them to be an officer.

An officer vouching for you would just be nothing more than saying hay I have played with this person and he is cool. It keeps people who are asses from being officers.

You can modify what you want to use or not. I did let everyone above 10th lvl be an officer when I ran the guild. People did tell me later that it kind cheapened the experence.

I think we should look at the requirements as goals instead of rules. I do think that we shold promote from with in to officers the people who want it. I am saying this more for new recruits. I think that if you have stuck it out with us through the time of troubles then you deserve to get promoted if you want it. And you have the required posts.

I agree on two points and Officer should be on the website and active there AND an officer should be active in game with the guild.

If you want to be an offcier log into the website and be active here post replies, thoughts, threads it doesn't need to be 100's just visible. If 'we' don't get more people active here then the $ and calendar and talk of democracy are crap. All 17 of out of 7 pages of memebrs who log in at least every other day does not make for a guild. This website (in my opinion) is the guild...in game its just a freinds list that you can spam (guild chat).

Then petion leader / succesor for said status and with what and why you are interested in being an officer (with references). The leader / successor can confirm with other members / officers the validity of the players claims. ACTIVE in game means organizing guild prefered events wether they be spur of the moment or planned. Asking for guildies in chat before going live and waiting for a few minutes if somebody wants to swap out is sure a kind / helpful gesture. Then go to the LFM ... that is active enough for me. Having any set static thing like '1 month' or '3 activities' is just a bunch or extra work that poeple (leader / succesor) will have to go through to monitor people. Think about that from another members perspective for a minute..how would you feel...I would say "screw that i'm gonna just play the game and if guild members want to come along fine so what if i have officer status... really all I can do is invite other people"

Finnaly it should only be the persons main that is an officer (or one alt of their choice).

Ok Marqesh and Aurion,

Very good points here. I will be thinking over what you said. I'm glad you brought up these issues and I think you have great ideas to add to us going forward. I will propose a new plan for officer status and post it here taking into consideration your comments.

Cheers
Kal

Maybe you can have the best of both worlds. Why have two ways to be an officer. I agree with Aurion that we should promote active people. I also think that the application process I have stated might not apeal to all people. So that being said, why not have two paths.

1. If you are an active person and help the guild out and express interest in becoming an officer and get a few other officers to vouch for you you get promoted.

2. If a person does not play alot, and they are on at odd hours they can go to anther route where they apply and document effort. They will have a series of goals to meet.

I do think there should be a min of a few weeks atleast and having others vouch for you. Forum participation is also very helpful. I also think it is important to have officers organize quests. With the use of the calander, and organized quests we will increase particapation.

I think if we made it a goal of every officer to organize a quest every two weeks we will have plenty of particapation.

As i posted I think forum activity is CRITICAL. If people aren't logging in here then getting stuff on the calendar and getting people signed up for quests / raids / events just doesn't work. I don't see a problem stipluting that people do so many quests etc...it's just not enforcable (my perspective on this is that somebody has to actually check and I don't think any of us really want to be bothered by that). As i have always posted ...when ever I group in game I first invite guild members then LFM. I regularly run with 4+ guild members.

Waiting periods are fine too...I'm just worried there is not easy way to monitor it...other than sign up day for the website.

I agree with points with all 3 of you I think comming here is important we learn what going on and important information. I think there was to many rules heck I was on council and didn't even know half of them or agreed with them. But I do recommed those that are in highschool and below really shouldn't have officer possistion but that a mom point of view. I think those that have been inactive for more than 4 months should not be officers <exceptions can be made for real life reasons>. I do know of a few people that do come to the website but don't really post replys what are you going to do about those people.I also think you need to check with those people if they even want the officer status before giving it to them some people could be more happy being just members. I also think before you can become a officer you should be in the guild and active for 2 or 3 months kinda like the 90 day trail perio. I think signing up on the web site is a good start date for those people.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I think you all have valid points and I agree in most part with the concepts you have laid out.

Aurion is right when he says “This website is the guild”. This is the point I was trying to make when I put forward the progression chart for officer status.

When you think about it, participation on the website leads to better organization in the guild. I know people were skeptical about the site and I admit to being one of those in the beginning. However, my personal experience has changed my mind a complete 180. I gave it a chance and it’s a great tool for this guild.

Marquesh, you have a good mind and a clear focus of what you want from your fellow guildies. I want to ask you to go in a different direction with us moving forward. I really don’t want to police everyone’s activities and contributions. I think these things will become very clear when we use the website to its full potential.

I don’t want the officer status to be a water downed novelty. I also don’t want people to be bogged down by a list of rules. Nor do I want them to have to jump through hoops to meet a long list of expectations. This will cause in-fighting and can be subjective. I want any rules going forward to be simple, attainable, reasonable and most importantly not interfere with the fun of being in The Fellowship.

Folks, we have a great depth of knowledge and many great players in this guild. We can move on from here and make it a great place for everyone.

Taking into consideration your new ideas I would like to propose the new strategy comprised of goals for obtaining Officer Status.

TO OBTAIN OFFICER STATUS THESE GOALS MUST BE ACHIEVED:

1. You have to sign up for this website.

2. Anyone under the age of 16 years will not be an officer. This is for 2 reasons, inviting/dismissing fellow Guildies (If you need further explanation on this on just ask me) and schoolwork commitments.

3. You must be a member of The Fellowship Website for a period 4 weeks to become an Officer.

4. Only your main character will be able to gain officer status. The only exceptions are for past and present Leaders and Successors. All of their Toons will be officers. The Guild Leader and Successor may at times feel a person has done so much for the guild they may have an additional Toon as an officer.

5. Officers will not be allowed to dismiss people from the guild. Only the Guild Leader or Successor can do that after the full story is heard.

6. You must follow guild policy and display proper conduct in game and on the website to warrant officer status.

7. Additional Goals For Becoming an Officer:

Level 16 - Signed Up For the Website and 1 Forum Post.
Level 15 - Signed Up For the Website and 2 Forum Posts.
Level 14 - Signed Up For the Website and 5 Forum Posts.
Level 13 - Signed Up For the Website and 10 Forum Posts.
Level 12 - Signed Up For the Website and 20 Forum Posts.

8. After all these goals are met you can petition for officer status stating why you would like the rank of officer. This way we know you want it because like Larue eluded to, not everybody wants to be an officer.


Everyone, my feeling is that if you meet this simple list of criteria you deserve to be an officer.

I want this experience to be fun for everyone.
Please cast your votes.

Cheers
Kal

This sounds very reasonable to me. One question, though. What do the levels mean? Is that the level of the players main? So if I have a level 14 toon, I need to be a member on the website and have posted 5 times? Or am I missing something?

This layout looks good. The only part i do not understand is #7, is this a requirement or a 'goal' / 'expectation'?

As a side note to haelp look deaper into my mind: I run an R&D / Tech department and if you plan on testing/monitoring/ or requiring some componet you have to be prepared to actually spend the time checking for it and be prepared to actaully act on it if you fall outside of the expected parameter. This is my motivation for comments like 'do you really' want to spend time checking what lvl / when / how many posts?

Some stats for everyone...

We have (as of 9/27/2007) 59 members signed up on this website.

30 had checked in within the past 3 days.
* 30 people who could see the calendar and sign up for a raid...odds we fill any given raid with this sites memebrship <very small>

6 have membership and have never logged into the site.
* Interesting you would come to MMO sign up and never come back...technical difficulties perhaps?

Of the 59, 8 have left the guild completely since the 27th.
* Except Lock** these wer4e also 3 day actives, so drop that number to 25!

I agree that the website is essential to the guild. I'm on here quite a bit, but don't post very often. This is a great source of information - I just don't have a lot to say. For the most part, I think that the plan presented above is a good start. I'm not so sure about someone's main toon having officer status. If someone has to be at least level 12 to attain that rank, I would think that lowbies asking to join would tend to have more of a difficult time getting in. I guess one way to solve this would be to have a guildie vouch for that person as was mentioned before. Either way, your proposal seems well planned. The details can be hammered out later as we continue to evolve.

Look at it this way, Durgann. Even a newbie coming on board can generally get his/her main toon to 10-12 level in 4 weeks with average game play. That would be the trial period anyway.

OK, good point. I forgot about the trial period, which is an excellent idea to weed out the troublemakers.

I really dont have a problem with most of what is being said, but I think that most of you are missing the point I am trying to make. I think that if a person is in the guild tand if they take time to become an officer. then people tend to do the minimum that is expected of them. So, if I with my lvl14 log in make 4 post then I don't ever have to come back. I think that sets us up for some issues. That is why I say let people who are to be officers organize 1 quest every 2 weeks or a month. It could be as east a posting on the calender that I am going to run the good balde quest next week. This will get activity at the site. While people are there you people will look around. You can track people doing this by looking at the calender. If I did not create a post in a month on the calender then I am not doing my job.

Now when you run the quest, when people from the guild join our group just ask them to alt tab out of the game and go sign up on the site. While they are there they will look around.

I do realize that it is not convenant, but it we want traffic on the site then we have to do a little work.

I will set up a test run ad I will try it out. I will set up 3 events and I will run them over the next few days. I will demonstrate what I thank needs to be done. To show you what I think will work.

Great discussion guys,

I just want to clear up some of the questions you have so far.

Therinh, you have it basically right. However I think we can include not only posts but other events people are involved in. Everything is tracked on the website so this is easy. For example, you could see a person at level 14 has 3 posts, ran one event and signed up for another. For me, as long as they meet the other guild goals then I would be satisfied. So in this case the person does not have 5 posts but has shown interest and I think that’s what counts most. Again I will ask the person first to ensure they even want the status in the first place. Like Larue mentioned not everyone wants it.

Aurion, Item number 7 is there to be a goal/expectation just like all the others. I feel it is the only true way to evaluate activity. This would in no way be a cumbersome task. All activity on the site is tracked so a simple click on a members name will give us an indication of their contributions. Heck if someone is level 8 and has 50 posts to the site I would think you are dedicated enough to be an officer in any guild. The levels indicated are only a guide and guides have to have a starting point. Rewarding in this way helps improve the guild spirit and we need a shot in the arm guys.

I too am a techie Aurion and I see where you’re going with the stats thing. Like any scientific data sample we have to ensure we evaluate it with the right tools. It’s true our site activity is small compared to our actual in game membership. We have to boost interest to make the site work. We need people like you in the guild that have good ideas and play at different times. We need leaders in every time zone. Aurion when we start this new approach the membership will boost and we may have to start a new guild called The Fellowship II. lol Just like OTG. I know this is a ways away but I want everyone to have fun and enjoy this guild. Please stick around and watch where it goes. You will like what you see and you’ll be glad you did.

Durgann; Therinh has it correct that the 4 week period would be enough time to get to level 12 but as I stated before exceptions can be made. We are not the CIA, just a bunch of friends with a common goal to have some fun.

Lastly Marquesh, I hear you brother and I’m going to continue to work on wearing you down. I think your ideas are great but the one that pushes people to be group and event leaders I don’t want to explore. I don’t want to police this activity and track it. I truly think that when we start getting more activity to the site everyone will do more.

It’s true they could do the minimum but I’m not their Dad. That’s up to them. They could also follow your approach and do the minimum by running 2 events and never running another. Then we would be in the position of demoting someone. I think if you set up an event and people signed up on the website then they are showing value to the guild, even if they didn’t run the quest.

I just feel this approach did not work in the past and I want to break that trend and move in a totally different direction. Please Marquesh, keep posting events; we need you for your experience. Show us by leadership and I know it will catch on with the others. Even write a post to show people how to do it. I know it’s easy but perhaps all someone need is that gentle nudge.

Less rules just Fun and Lots of Loot.

Cheers
Kal

I think in many ways we are saying the same thing Kalaar. I am not here to police or be anyone dad. I do think if we set as a guild goal that every officer organize and run one event every few weeks. I don't think we should have to enforce it. I am not looking over peoples sholders, but if we don't set goals then we will have people who don't organize anything.

The people who do organize events will then get frustrated that they are doing all the work and the other officers are doing nothing but joing pugs or joing their groups. I don't see it as a rule, but more of a goal that helps the guild be more active.

I think people post lfm's in the guild chat everyday. The only difference is that you post it on the calender. I guess it is all about what people asre willing to do to support the guild. I think that if we set our expectations of our leaders low then we set ourselfs up for failure. I think there has to be somthing more than the fact that that person is a good guy and he has a few posts.

He is my example. Some one joins the guild at 14th lvl. he posts a few post over the month, and he organizes the minumim of 2 quests. Lest say that he stops trying, because one you are an officer you are set. We notice he is not posting and not running with guildies very much. We ask him to please step up and help out. He says he did what was required of him. He continues to not chip in and we demote him to a member, and them he get pisses and then leaves. He then take several of his friends with him because they say we are being mean to him. He did do what we are currently(if not more) require to become an officer.

On the other hand.. Lets say a girl (have to be fair to both genders) joins at 14th lvl posts a few times runs a few quests and is a good player. She is approached about being an officer, and she says sure. She askes around for groups in the lfm a few times a week, and runs with a few guildies. She really only goes to the forums once every week or two, and never tryes to organize events. We notice she is not very active for what an officer should be. We ask her to particapate more and go to the forums, becaus other officers are seeing that she is really doing nothing to contribute to the guild other than trying to fill her group . She then says that she doeas not want to be more active, and she like the way she runs. Whe then demote her and she leaves the guild taking a few friends with her, or we leave he an officer and other officers. Then other officers start thinking why am I busting my tail organizing events and recruting people to the guild and donating stuff to the bank and this girl over here is an officer does nothing. They then get mad. Start a stink and leave the guild taking several friends with them.


I am just throwing that out for you to digest

It's true that all the stuff you mentioned can happen because it already did when we tried to invoke all the rules around officer status.

I'm saying lets try something completely different. I don't think people are going to do the minimum to get the status. I have more faith then that. I don't think it will cheapen the officer rank either. I think it's worth a try.

As an officer previously, I never gave another though to what the other officers did. I could care less because I was doing the best I could. I think people will feel the same.

What you are proposing does set us up for hard feelings. What I'm proposing I feel does not.

Why do I say this. One way puts an expectation in the back of peoples mind that they have to meet. It will cause resentment. It will cause angst. Then that person will be made to feel less worthy and not a team player. The other way will invite them to have a chance to be a better player and find out more about their own abilities. It might even insipre them to start doing more.

The point is that this is all about change. If one officer has a problem that another officer is not living up to an expectaion then that's not right. I don't want any more judging. This is a game where nobody's getting paid. Lets just play the game and have a laugh or two along the way.

Some people will abuse the situation no matter what we say. I think once we get rolling that will be the minority.

Cheers
Kal

I don't think it was the rules that caused the trouble I think the fact that being an officer was really hard to get. I will start harping about this. I do think that we will have some activity at first and then it will die down like it was. Where only a few people running events. I hope that becoming an office is not cheapened by apathy and complacency. I will set back and watch. We will see. I have dont thisall this before when the guild was young. I hope it works this time.